Thursday, April 24, 2008

Saperate Pay Scales for Armed forces

Concerned over officers leaving armed forces for lucrative employment in private sector, the government is looking at delinking pay scales of defence forces with those of central government employees.

The demand for delinking payscales, raised by armed forces and lawmakers, ''will be looked into,'' Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju said replying to supplementaries during Question Hour in Rajya Sabha.

Officers, particularly in the non-select rank who lead soldiers on the ground, leaving armed forces for lucrative employment in private sector was a matter of concern but not alarm, he said.

28 comments:

  1. God of govt. servants.9:45 AM

    All this are stupid AND rhetoric.. discussion. you poor group b, c, d fellows, will be poor forever.we'll not going to upgrade your status, after all we the administrative officers have all the right to rule the blind,politically motivated, this beautiful country.ANGREJ CHALE GAYE, HAME ADHIKAR DEKAR. you people leave this country and work for western people there. TUMAHRE LIYE MERA BHARAT MAHAN, HAMARE LIYE PAISA AUR POWER MAHAN...JAI PAISA...

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  2. Delinking the pay scales from other central services is certainly not a solution.

    It is a fact that all services differ from each other in their service content and conditions and cannot be cited as a reason for delinking the payscales. This move will open a pandora box for all services especially the Para Military organisations who are also working in similar conditions,to demand delinking from the central payscales on one or the other pretext. The 6th CPC has already opened a war between IAS and IPS on the edge being given to IAS for the so called "difficult conditions of work in their initial career".

    Yes, I do agree that armed forces personnel especially the PBORs need to be compensated adequately for the hardships they suffer. But this compensation should be in the form of MSP or any other allowance and not by having special pay scales.

    Now coming to the issue of shortage of officers in armed forces, the minister has rightly pointed out at reasons for shortage of officers in the armed forces. Going by the same logic, i.e. it is the changing socio-economic conditions that are driving the officers to other careers; Is it not the time for the armed forces to introspect and find the solution from within. It is a fact that a large number of armed forces officers are engaged in jobs/businesses that can be performed with much better by their civilian counterparts or by the market. To name a few Canteen stores department, Survey of India, Border Roads organisation, MES, Army service Corps etc... are some of those organisations which could easily be civilianised. It is time the defence ministry gives it a serious look and restructure these organisations to free armed forces officers from their non-core functions and utilise them for duties they have been trained for at government expense.

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  3. There is a strong case for delinking the payscales of Armed Forces as is the case all over the world.
    Every civil services officer becomes Jt Secy or equivalent in 18 years max. In the fauj only 3% of all officers become Jt Secy equiv and that too after 30 years of service at an average.

    The nature of hierarchy is such that all can not be made Jt Secy level but that does not mean they can not be paid Jt Secy salaries when thay reach 18 Years of service.

    Imagine a civil officer earning Maj Gen pay from 18th year onwards till he achieves retirement age whereas faujis start earning that pay (only 3% of them) after 30 years service and then retire earlier to maintain a youthful profile. Gross inequity for a life that is 10 times more difficult than civil counterparts

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  4. Anonymous12:35 AM

    Dear whoever-decides-my-pay-department

    Pls do something about my pay....and better do it fast.I too want my kids to get into good schools.Why should'nt I be able to send my kids to a good school just because I chose to serve my country and not look for some cushy management job.

    There is lot of disappointment and digruntlement amongst my batchmates in Army.Pls dont force me to repent my decision of joining Army.

    If you feel that the Govt is paying me enough via free housing ,Canteen facilities,free hospital treatments and all that blah then I request you to pls withdraw all these and pay me 4.5 times my current salary as demanded in 6 th pay commission.

    Cases of shoratge of cadets have already been reported in IMA and NDA. Pls do something fast before we have cases of mass resignations in Army.......and always remember that if you pay peanuts then u'll only get monkeys lined up as job applicants.

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  5. There is no need to delink the army from the pay com ambit. The army walas can be given incentives in two ways. One is across the board and the other based on the nature of posting.Those posted to tough spots like siachin can be given a generous package which should prompt others to come forward requesting a posting to siachin. Whether its good for the country only future can tell.Otherwise, what the army people get must be taken into consideration in determining their pay package. The canteen facility, the free supply of milk, eggs, meat, free health care, free education for kids, 2 months annual leave, 20 days CL, well appointed officers institutes, elegantly done up messes,orderlies at officers homes,vehicles, swimming pools, polo, golf and other recreational facilities must also be calculated. In the pvt sector, such facilities r not provided and even where they r provided, they wud not get time to use those facilities.Are the army chaps calculating the cost of all these facilities which are provided to them on a platter? attractive pay package is relevant in the pvt sector which runs on the basis of profit/loss motive. Govt service can't be on the basis of how much money one gets. If army officers leave the army because they r getting better package elsewhere, they should pay the army for reaching that stage of being lucratively employed by the pvt sector and leave. No problem. The army is not running short of men, it may be running short of officers. Wars are won by jawans and lost by generals.

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  6. Anonymous6:01 PM

    oracle of delhi is wrong in saying saying that wars are won by jawans and lost by generals.The example is our first strugle of independence which was not having any officer element to give it a desired leadership.Lt col is an important leadership level in army to lead from front and needs to be looked after

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  7. Anonymous7:15 PM

    Dear oracle-of-Delhi,

    Pls fwd me the names of Offrs, who I'm sure u have met,and are regular visitors of these "well done up clubs"....Cos I m yet to visit any of these in last 10 yrs of my service.

    Pls also fwd names of those guys who are enjoying the ration supplied by Army.The rest of us would like to meet them !

    If jawans are what u require to win wars then why lament over the fact that Offrs are quitting.I'm sure that there is something called foresight,planning,tactics for which u do require slightly educated guys.So dear we do require Generals no matter how useless they might appear to you.

    And really ,if you strongly feel that CTC of an Army Offr is much higher than an average Corporate guy then why don't we withdraw these worldclass facilities extended to Army Officers and offer them 4.5 times their current salary as demanded by them in 6 th pay commission.

    National Security is a serious issue and you do require high quality material to run the show.Im sure none of your civilian friends would like to entrust the responsibility of protecting and guarding the Izzat of their mothers and sisters ,just in case China/Pakistan gets mean,with a poorly paid and demotivated force.

    Just remember what Chanakya said almost centuries ago - "....and TO ensure smoothy administration the King must pay his Generals pay so much that his basic requirements are taken care of and his rivals are NEVER ABLE TO BUY HIM".With the way Generals are quitting for Private sector I think that the King's rivals may have just about achieved their aim.

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  8. Anonymous1:50 AM

    Hey men ask for arrears to be deposited in GPF with retrospective effect from January 2006. Otherwise it is day light roobery by the Govt. No union is raising this issue with the Govt. If this is done then Govt will not henceforth unnecessarily drag announcement of pay commission recommendations.

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  9. Anonymous8:37 PM

    The majority in army retire at the rank of Lt Col or now Col time scale.I m told Time scale col is no better than Lt Col age of retirement( that is 54) and pay wise .So if these two ranks are left out the majority still remains deprived and would not make army lucarative.

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  10. Dear Annonymous, I regret I wud not be able to forward u the names of officers who visit Officers Messes and Officers Institutes because it contains the whole fraternity of officers. None is denying that the army needs to be paid well. But, when u take the pay packet into consideration, u have to include all the visible and invisible perks also and the items I have mentioned are given to every officer.
    Regarding waging wars with a demoralised mindset because the 6 CPC has done a shabby job is indeed strange logic. Mercifully, people who think like u are in a minority.

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  11. Anonymous5:08 AM

    Dear oracle of Delhi

    I echo ur viewpoint that the cost of various benfits provided to govt officers including army should b taken into account 2 have a breakeven analysis with civil.XLRI has done the same and its report is on the offical website of paycommission.While doing so XLRI has brought out that the cost of providing a benifit that is canteen is far more than the actual cost of benifit acrued 2 a service officer.Take medical facility every govt offical is having free medical facility.Army officer is only constrained 2 go 2 army hospital which may be miles away in case he is staying in a civil hired accomodation.And pl note officers normal tenure in a station is 3-4 yrs and he gets govt accomodation only after waitung for 2 yrs.so donot be disillusioned by some sprawling bungalows in lutyen zone which r occupied by few Gen who constitue only less than 1 % of the officers n army.so there is a point when some one in the blog said earlier that let these paltry benifuts b taken away and officers r paid relistically

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous11:47 AM

      I do not know where officers in armed forces waited for 2 years for bungalow but I know it very well that every friday and saturday they do the party in offficers mess and for jawan only duty anf only duty anf nothing else, no social life no quality time for family.
      Sach sabko pata hai par apni suvidhaon ki vajah se koi bolna nahi chahta.

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  12. Dear Anonymous!
    I am glad that at last there is some point of agreement. I don't have any qualms about our forces being paid better. They should be paid better by all means. But, in determining the pay, the package must cover all benefits. The Forces have access to exclusive health facilities unlike others who have to go to CGHS or other public hospitals which nobody prefers. I have some army background and I know that Defence Forces have access to good healthcare. If ur complaint is that ur hired acco is far off from the army hospital, pl take a house nearer to the army base hospital. None is preventing u since its hired acco anyway.Even in the case of acco, just go and see what type of a house a Lt.Col gets to stay in the cantonement area. Agreed that not every officer may be getting acco like that. But, in the civil category, officers far senoir to Lt.Col put up in a 2 room set on Curzon Road. Canteen facility is justfiable. The Mess and the Officers Institutes are also justifiable since the Defence Forces live in an exclusive atmosphere and they can't be expected to go to private recreational facilities which are quite expensive. Look at the Civilians. Several officers of the level of Deputy Secretary, Director, Joint Secretary, Addl. Secretary and Secretary don't have any recreational facility. The Gymkhana Club is for a select few. Others have no where to go. All I say is that let's look at it holistically. The MSP must be a % of the basic pay across the board.And give it from jawan to general. Certain %, say 10 or 15 whatever it be. nobody grudges that. But, to raise a raucus about army officers not getting paid well is not correct.

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  13. Anonymous5:36 PM

    Dear freinds,
    I am a serving army oficer. It pains me to read some of the comments which are made based on 'half-baked' knowledge. I belong to the Infantry (30% of the Army is the Infantry) or the footsloggers. I have served for more than a decade in Kashmir in my 20yrs of service leading from platoon to battalion. Despite a blemishless record, I just might reach the rank of Brigadier for which I will have to toil for another 8 years. Mind you Brigadier is equated with Director by our distinguished Babus, which they achieve in 14 yrs of service. And also to inform you only 10%, yes a measly 10% of an entire batch makes it to Brigadier. Can you still grudge paying me better. Leave aside the damn money, its the IZZAT that is more important. I speak from my heart when I inform you that when in Kashmir from age 21 to age 40 I have operated for more than 3 - 4 times a week. Operated means, been out with my troops on Ambushes, patrols and Search and Destroy missions. I never did anything spectacularly brave, but I swear I never let any of my boys enter a suspect house before me, I never let them suffer any hardship which I did not endure myself. My dear friends it's not only me but almost all my brother oficers who lead in this fashion. We do it mainly for our self respect in front of our jawans, truly the finest. Please do not demean our efforts by stating that we enjoy officers messes, clubs, medical. In the field an oficers mess is nothing but a tent or a Dhok (a makeshift residence used by Gujar brothers to hold cattle). If I am shot would you grudge me assured medical treatment. I have hardly ever used canteen facilities, except for tel and sabun, which is not available in most places I have been posted. I can assure you what you see in the metros is nothing but a mirage. Clubs are frequented by more oficers who are retired. If you find things neat and orderly, please credit our sense of discipline in a rather indisciplined country like ours. Mind you most young oficers are fighting their arse off knowing fully well that only 30% will be selected for promotion to Colonel.
    You know why we do it is probably because of a wonderful system of regimentation left to us by the British. I can assure you, the defence forces are the only institution left in the country which all of us can feel proud of. We have bad hats and they are punished justly. A Major General - (only 4% make it)was foumd guilty of a misdemeanour in 2005. His services were terminated and he recieved three years Rigourous Imprisonement. Have you ever heard of any Babu being punished or they do no wrong......


    Thats all for now Good luck

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  14. Dear Anonymous Officer! I read ur comment with sincere interst. U have presented ur case very well. I hope the powers that be take note of the anguish all around.I also hope that U would get what U think is ur appropriate package. Wish U all Good luck.

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  15. Anonymous2:15 AM

    Dear all,

    Huge confusion about Army's demand for more pay is not understandable.

    Even if you half the pay of an IAS Officer -99% chances are that he will still continoue because of the power and prestige attached with his job.So far very few cases have come to light where people have quit cos of poor pay or IAS probationers have refused to show up at Lal Bhadur Shastri Acadmey of Adminstartiion at Mussorie.

    If you see the current plight of Army then the fact is that it is difficult to retain existing talent in army and far more difficult is to attract quality material into Army.A case in point is the shortage of cadets in IMA and NDA.

    So dear friends,as one of the anonymous guy has brought out earlier,do something... and better do it fast cos by the time you would have finished reading this few more Officers would have hung their boots without waiting for the final outcome of 6 pay commission !!

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  16. After listening to the anguish of military men, we the Officers in civil front want to say to the Govt., please pay well to all salaries to military, paramilitary and other police services. We in civil front like Space, Nuclear Energy and numerous other Scientists etc are not really essential. Rather this govt. can not afford such luxuries. Any way such talented people can find better jobs in private.

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  17. @
    Anonymous

    But as per my info the cols at unit level and Gens at army level are making life hell for every body else in the army. if there are so many problem why can not the cols and Gens just enjoy and let every body else enjoy the army life instead of asking for more money which the government is not ready to pay. what goes from the pocket of cols and Gens if the life style of normal army men improves. it is cols and Gens who are forcing everybody to stay in office even on sundays. and when soldiers start committing suicide they will call some CEO of MNC to give lecture on stress and strain that too on sunday from 9 AM to 4 PM .what is this can you explain.

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  18. Anonymous10:46 PM

    The comments are quite informative and eye-opener for all of us.Going through it,one can have a fair idea what the military think about their pay and what are the views of the civilian citizen of this country.It really pains me to see the plight of our Armed forces.Surrounded by hostile neighbours,we are definitely in need of a highly motivated soldiers.But the successive govt has done injustice to our Armed Forces.Here,i'd just like to remind you all what our Army Chief said during Kargil crisis,"Armed Forces is like your life insurance premium.If you fail to pay even for a month,you'll realize the mistake when something happen to you." I hope we don't want that to happen.Definitely,our Armed forces well deserve better pay and perks.Why not?Can anyone of you leave your family and kids for 2/3 yrs just to do your duty?Can anyone of you walk everyday in a militant-infested area?Can anyone of you live with the thoughts that all guns are aiming at you all the time?These are just a few thing...forget about living in harsh condition,inhospitable terrain etc..etc..Then what is the problem in giving the Armed forces their dues!!

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  19. Anonymous3:00 PM

    I have heard of some former McKinsey consultants planning to open an executive search agency to help armed forces, civil service personel and PSU personnel make career changes into the corporate sector. Saw it on "whispersinthecorridors.com". If anyone's interested out here, I can try to get that link - seems there ewas a name and contact email there

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  20. Anonymous12:43 PM

    You know, why the state of armed forces has become like this today because they are not a vote bank. Govt does not get anything in return by providing any facilities to them, thats why armed forces are ignored now a days. armed forces should fight to play an active role in politics by casting their votes. proxy voting and postal ballot system should be done away with. whoever is posted at which ever constituency should vote in that constituency. for example, if a jawan is posted at lucknow, he should vote in lucknow for assembly as well as general elections. he should not send a postal vote to his home constituency. if this gets implemented then these politicians will definitely listen to the armed forces and pay commission will also do justice to them. i feel three service chiefs should take up this issue with the govt and this govt may implement this because as it is they are in troublesome times, they might get some votes from armed forces on this issue. any takers of this idea???

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  21. Anonymous12:46 PM

    I think it is not the mistake of our civilian friends. these guys will know what they have heard/read thru media. Do you know anything real about armed forces, you dont know anything but you have your comments like any fool in india has. Why should a soldier lay his life for his country/countrymen? Is he getting paid for dying? How much do u think is the cost of one soldier's life? Will u be ready to die for your countrymen for few thousand rupees. Yes, a soldier has joined the forces to earn a living but why should he fight in the war with full dedication and be ready to do highest sacrifice, he can also pretend to be doing his duty as our babus/politicians/policewalas do. Please think about this and stop criticising armed forces which has become a fashion now a days. If you can't respect your soldiers atleast don't disrespect them.

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  22. Anonymous12:50 PM

    nobody is realising that if they dont get decent pay package, the day is not far when the country may face a mutiny by these faujis. tab pura ka pura corporate sector dhara ka dhara raha jayega. already many cases r being reported where soldiers r killing officers out of disgust. i feel they should be given their due for peace in this country. actually our country doesnt know the pros and cons of having military rule. ask pakistanis and iraqis they will tell u. do not try flirting with danger. once these faujis revolt, it will go beyond everyone's control. lets give them their due and ensure peace and security of tis couintry.

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  23. dear oracle
    its heartening to se how concerned the civilian brothers are about the conditions under which the mean and officers of armed forces live and work. to quote a cliche"all that glitters is not gold" and the gleaming stars and stripes on our uniforms come at the cost of often swallowing our pride and living in substandard housing consuming rotten rations and entertaining ourselves in dilapidated clubs and messes. if that sounds intresting be our guest and live our lives for a few days .maybe then ur comments will sound closer to the truth. i would suggest u stand post on a glacier or keep a watch on a dark night in rough seas or else fly into the night with just a few intruments and a prayer on ur lips . whicever way we dont not have ur luxury of sitting in a cosy living room and makng a judgement on the so called priveleges we in the forces enjoy merely on appearances.

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  24. Anonymous9:16 PM

    oracle of delhi

    you have been enjoying all the perks of fauj/armywalas as it is seen from your knowledge you are no different from civilian babus. why don,y you also join the army and enjoy the perks being offered.

    " The canteen facility, the free supply of milk, eggs, meat, free health care, free education for kids, 2 months annual leave, 20 days CL, well appointed officers institutes, elegantly done up messes,orderlies at officers homes,vehicles, swimming pools, polo, golf and other recreational facilities must also be calculated. In the pvt sector, such facilities r not provided and even where they r provided, they wud not get time to use those facilities. "

    join and u wud realise you only maintain them for rishtedars. moreover it is wrong/criminal on our part or who so ever has taken you there so called perks.

    wait till young officers start telling your relatives to mind their own buisness and not allow guest like you.
    wait till they tell you to wait when the war is on in kargil or J&K.
    your beurocrats and IAS have only given you wht is there in BIhar as on date and wait till you also see the same in Delhi and somebody tells you wait till i get my orders. thereafter sit on that order till he fills fit to do the duty.
    please don,t pay for your insurance as well as insurance of your near and dear ones. wait till army becomes somewhatt like police and acts l;ike police.
    may god bless the nation and their sons like you.

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  25. Anonymous9:18 PM

    VRS of a 1990-batch Rajasthan cadre IAS Officer, Jagdish Chandra, who had made a complete "turnaround" at Rajasthan Saras Dairy, Jaipur Development Authority and Transport Department, has been cleared on Thursday evening by the Chief Minister Vasundhara Raje. Chandra, who was due to retire in April, 2010, leaves his job to fulfill his old media passion, by joining as CEO, for ETV assignment for Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, on the eve of Assembly and Lok Sabha polls. His appointment is being considered as important in the Rajasthan bureaucratic and political circles.


    may i request the govt to consider army cases like this.

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  26. Anonymous11:00 AM

    Saying that wars are won by men and lost by generals is grossly & totally wrong. Wars are won by armies well led and officers lead the armies.If quality of officers goes down so does the quality of the armed forces and officers leaving is adangerous trend. Undermining middle rung officers inthe rank of Majors & Lt Colonels will lower their morale & lead to an exodus of such Officers. Donot forget 1962 when the armed forces were undermined & History has a tendency to repeat itself. These days all wars wether external or Counter Insurgency are the battle of the mind and the Officer (ARMY NAVY or AIR FORCE) till date has proved his mettle. Therefore undermine him at your peril.

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  27. Anonymous2:04 PM

    The govt is trying to diffuse a bomb that is related to the armed forces objections to the pay commisssion recommendations. They should be aware that by diffusing this bomb they are likely to activate a bigger and more harmful bomb wherein the paramilitary forces and the civillian employees will do what the armed forces tried and maybe they will bw sucessful.
    It requires careful analysis and following should be kept in mind

    1. The pay commisssion had placed Lt Col and equivalent below Directors and this was not done by the Commitee of Secretaries. The armed forces did not cry foul play then.
    2. The armed forces were very happy when the Brig and Col were put in pay band 4 but then cried foul play when the Dir and equivalent were also put in the same band.

    3. The question of equivalance was never there,just by adding the rank pay does not make it the yard stick for equivalance. If so then all the doctors would be equal to atleast two steps above their grade. Think about it?

    The grade pay establishes equivalance only in the cadre and not in general. If there is a requirement of protocol then the matter should have been refered to Home ministry or the President who issues the precedence order. The Naval Chief has said that they dont want money but status ,so look at the whole issue in this light ,this would take care of the budget managment too.

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